1 1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF NEW YORK 2 3 NATASHA AUSTIN AND NICOLE AUSTIN, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 -against- Index No. 10215/00 Volume I 6 DAIMLERCHRYSLER CORPORATION, WESBURY JEEP EAGLE, INC., 7 MARIBEL ORTIZ, AS INTENDED ADMINISTRATRIX OF THE ESTATE 8 OF JOSE A. SIERRA, DECEASED, GRACE H. EVANS AND LISA N. 9 EVANS, Defendants. 10 ________________________________/ 11 12 The videotaped deposition of JUDSON 13 B. ESTES, a witness in the above-entitled matter, 14 taken before Melinda S. Moore, (CSR-2258), a Notary 15 Public, at 840 West Long Lake, Suite 200, Troy, 16 Michigan, on May 26, 2005, commencing at or about 17 1:58 p.m. 18 APPEARANCES: 19 Greene, Broilett & Wheeler 20 BY: CHRISTINE D. SPAGNOLI 100 Wilshire Boulevard 21 Suite 2100 P.O. Box 2131 22 Santa Monica, California 90407-2131 23 Appearing on behalf of Plaintiffs 24 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 2 1 APPEARANCES, Continued: 2 Herzfeld & Rubin BY: MAUREEN FOGEL 3 40 Wall Street New York, New York 10005 4 Appearing on behalf of Defendant 5 DaimlerChysler Corporation 6 Chrysler Corporation Office of the General Counsel 7 BY: GREGORY D. McMAHON 800 Chrysler Drive 8 Auburn Hills, Michigan 48326 9 Appearing on behalf of Defendant DaimlerChrysler Corporation 10 11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 12 JAMES WALKER, Reitman Video Specialists (248) 344-4271 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 3 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 WITNESS: PAGE: 4 JUDSON B. ESTES 5 Examination by Ms. Spagnoli 6 6 E X H I B I T S 7 Deposition Exhibit No. 1 8 Fuel Systems & Impact Presentation 9 (DC 05115-130) 10 Deposition Exhibit No. 2 04: Design Guidelines - 11 Fuel Supply - General (DC 05045-53) 12 Deposition Exhibit No. 3 13 Compliance Report re: Fuel System Integrity 14 1996 'ZJ' Body, Jeep "Grand Cherokee" Sport 15 Utility 16 Deposition Exhibit No. 4 Structures Laboratory - 17 Status Report 12/3/90 (DC 7082-85) 18 Deposition Exhibit No. 5 19 3-2-95 Memorandum to Distribution from 20 J.B. Estes re: 1996 ZJ Post Impact 21 Review Meeting from 2-2-95 (DC 05029-34) 22 Deposition Exhibit No. 6 23 Safety Test, Vehicle Crash Test Request 24 re: ZJ8602 (DC 7087-91) 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 4 1 EXHIBITS, continued: 2 Deposition Exhibit No. 7 Safety Test, Vehicle 3 Crash Test Letter re: VC5380 4 (Dc 04052-71) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 5 1 Troy, Michigan 2 May 26, 2005 3 * * * * * 4 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Today's date is May the 5 26th, 2005, and we're on the record at 1:58 p.m. 6 This is the video deposition of Mr. Judson Estes, 7 and we are at the offices of Miller, Canfield in 8 Troy, Michigan. This is the matter of Austin vs. 9 DaimlerChrysler, et al. 10 Could counsel put their appearance on the 11 record, please. 12 MS. SPAGNOLI: Christine Spagnoli 13 representing the plaintiffs. 14 MS. FOGEL: Maureen Fogel from the law firm 15 of Herzfeld & Rubin representing DaimlerChrysler 16 Corporation. 17 MR. McMAHON: Gregory McMahon for 18 DaimlerChrysler. 19 * * * * * 20 J U D S O N B. E S T E S 21 after having been first duly sworn by the Notary 22 Public, was examined and testified on his oath as 23 follows: 24 * * * * * 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 6 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. SPAGNOLI: 3 Q Could you tell us your name, please. 4 A My name is Judson Bert Estes. 5 Q And are you currently an employee of the 6 DaimlerChrysler? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where are you physically housed? 9 A In the Auburn Hills DaimlerChrysler Technical 10 Center. 11 Q How long have you been employed by DaimlerChrysler? 12 A Nineteen years. 13 Q So that means you predate the merger between 14 Chrysler and Mercedes-Benz? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. What is your educational background? 17 A I have a bachelor's degree in physics. 18 Q Okay. From where did you get your degree? 19 A Wayne State University. 20 Q And when did you finish that degree? 21 A 1986. 22 Q What positions have you held since you became 23 employed at Chrysler? 24 A I started in the impact crash film analysis area and 25 I progressed to the impact analysis at Chelsea FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 7 1 Proving Grounds, and then I went from Chelsea to 2 Jeep and Truck Engineering, where I was in vehicle 3 crash test program management. I went from there to 4 the Jeep Assembly Plant in Toledo. I went back to 5 Jeep Engineering in Detroit, where I was design and 6 release for our seat belts and steering column, and 7 then my most recent assignment was at Auburn Hills 8 in the corporate quality. 9 Q Okay. For what period of time did you work in 10 impact analysis? And I would take that up to your 11 time before you went to the Jeep Assembly Plant in 12 Toledo. 13 A I was in impact analysis and impact test, running in 14 one capacity or another, from 1986 until 1998. 15 Q Okay. And since you've -- let me withdraw. You 16 said you went to the Jeep Assembly Plant in Toledo. 17 What did you do at that plant? 18 A It was called interior leader, and that's a 19 responsibility for the interior parts of the XJ Jeep 20 vehicle. 21 Q And then when you came back to Jeep Engineering in 22 Detroit, you said you were a design and release 23 engineer for seat belts and steering columns; is 24 that right? 25 A Design and release supervisor for seat belts and FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 8 1 steering columns. 2 Q Okay. So with respect to specifically any role that 3 you've had that involved impact analysis or crash 4 test analysis, that's from your early days up 5 through 1998; would that be correct? 6 A Yeah. I think it's '98 when I stopped. 7 Q Okay. And during your time in impact crash analysis 8 or vehicle crash test program management, during 9 that time did you have a role in reviewing and 10 preparing and running crash tests that involved 11 various Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee vehicles? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Can you tell us what the earliest vehicle, Jeep 14 vehicle you were involved with as far as crash 15 testing? 16 A The '96 Grand Cherokee. 17 Q Okay. And when did you work on the '96 Grand 18 Cherokee, during what period of time? 19 A Previous to its launch, the '96 Grand Cherokee, in 20 late '94 through through mid-'95. 21 Q Okay. And then were you also involved in crash test 22 performance and analysis involving the 1997 Jeep 23 Grand Cherokee? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q Tell us, if you can, just generally what the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 9 1 procedure is for requesting a crash test, in other 2 words, who initiates the testing request. 3 A The test request is written by the vehicle 4 development crash test engineer, and that initiates 5 the crash test sequence. 6 Q And then does that request get transmitted -- and 7 while you were at the impact analysis center, does 8 that get forwarded to the crash test management 9 program to then set up the test? 10 A The test request gets sent to Chelsea Proving 11 Grounds in order for it to become on the schedule 12 for the crash tests. 13 Q And then who actually arranges for the vehicles and 14 gets the tests set up and performs the tests? 15 A The tests are performed by the Scientific Labs 16 personnel at Chelsea. 17 Q Okay. And was that a role that you filled at some 18 point in your career at Chrysler? 19 A Actually running the vehicle crash tests at Chelsea, 20 I did not do. 21 Q Okay. Did you assist in making arrangements for 22 crash tests to be conducted? 23 A I worked at Chelsea on the film analysis section for 24 the full-size cars, the entire vehicle. All I did 25 was the film analysis section while at Chelsea, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 10 1 running the tests. 2 Q Okay. And your work in film analysis, just give us 3 briefly a description of what you did with respect 4 to that type of analysis. 5 A The film analysis works so that you can trans -- 6 transform the camera into a transit and use the 7 camera lens like a transit to identify unknown 8 objects in the field of view. When the car comes in 9 and is impacted, you don't know where it is so you 10 take the cameras and transmit them into a transit 11 and run a series of calculations to identify the 12 location, the roll, pitch, yaw and the X, Y, Z of 13 the camera, and take that data and then calculate 14 where the car is relative to the ground and where 15 things on the car or in the car are relative to the 16 car axes coordinates, and so those coordinates are 17 calculated, and that's what you do in film analysis, 18 is set up the cameras, set up the coordinates and 19 then calculate relative motion between the ground, 20 axis of the coordinates and the targets of interest 21 on the car are. 22 Q Okay. And does that assist you in verifying the 23 speed of impact and the various -- 24 A The speed of impact is verified with an 25 electronic -- an optical trap timer. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 11 1 Q Okay. The film analysis allows you to do what with 2 respect to evaluating the performance of the 3 vehicle? 4 A The performance of the vehicle in a crash test, you 5 can calculate the dynamic crush. That is the 6 primary metric that's produced by film analysis. 7 Q Okay. And is dynamic crush routinely recorded in 8 the crash test reports? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. You said that you then progressed to impact 11 analysis at the Chelsea Proving Grounds, and I 12 believe you said that was on full-size vehicles that 13 you did that work? 14 A The impact simulator at Chelsea, and that's not on 15 full-size vehicles. That's on a much smaller 16 version of it. The simulator uses only the interior 17 of the vehicle. 18 Q Okay. And which vehicles did you work on when you 19 were in impact analysis at Chelsea? 20 A So many, I can't recall them all. 21 Q Okay. Would these be things testing like the seat 22 belts and seating systems and -- 23 A Those are among the things that are tested on the 24 simulator. 25 Q Okay. When you went to -- from Chelsea to Jeep and FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 12 1 Truck Engineering, what year did you start there? 2 A '94, as I recall. 3 Q And this is the beginning of your work managing the 4 crash test program for the '96 and '97 Jeep Grand 5 Cherokees? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you -- when you went to work in 1994 in the Jeep 8 and Truck Engineering as the crash test program 9 manager for the Grand Cherokee, at that time did you 10 review and become familiar with the crash tests that 11 had been performed on the earlier model Grand 12 Cherokee vehicles? 13 A There is a process where you take the new engineer 14 and explain to them what the status the program is 15 in its development, and in that process you become 16 familiar with the previous tests and what the status 17 of the vehicle and its development phases are. 18 Q Okay. And so is 1994 when you first became familiar 19 with any prior testing on the Grand Cherokee model 20 vehicles? 21 A Yeah. Yes, that's the primary part where I started 22 to be responsible for the Grand Cherokee testing. 23 Q Okay. So up until that time, even though you were 24 in -- generally working in impact analysis, you had 25 not been exposed to crash testing on the Grand FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 13 1 Cherokees that had occurred in the early 90's? 2 A I would have seen some of the films in the course of 3 our analysis. The analysis that you perform, you 4 don't look at much what's on the film except for the 5 targets of interest where you're trying to perform 6 the work that was requested, so I had seen films, 7 I'm certain, of which I cannot recall which ones 8 because I never looked into the details of the film 9 beyond the aspects of which I was focused on while I 10 did the film analysis work. 11 Q Okay. And is there -- let me withdraw. Have you 12 ever given a deposition before? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How many times? 15 A Twice, I think. 16 Q Do you recall the names of either case that you gave 17 depositions in? 18 A No. 19 Q Did either case involve a Jeep Grand Cherokee? 20 A I believe one did, but I'm not real clear. 21 Q Okay. How long ago did you give the last 22 deposition? 23 A A couple years ago. 24 Q Okay. When you first took over as vehicle crash 25 test manager for the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 1994, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 14 1 who had been responsible for the crash test program 2 for that vehicle before you? 3 A My memory is a little unclear on that, and there 4 were two people in the office before me and when 5 there was more work than the two guys could handle, 6 it's unclear as to who was actually the signatory on 7 that. I didn't sign the compliance documents which 8 is the final responsibility. The manager I worked 9 for, Ed Zylik, was responsible for the activities of 10 those two men, but exactly which one of then was 11 doing what before I got there, I couldn't say. 12 Q And who were the two people? What were their names? 13 A Vic Hannawi and Don Mallet would have been the two 14 men that had some participation in it before I 15 arrived. 16 Q And you were working with those people in the same 17 department prior to 1994; is that right? 18 A No. I was not working in that department prior to 19 1994. 20 Q Okay. Were you -- your department of impact 21 analysis would provide information for the crash 22 test impact management people? Is it the impact 23 department? 24 A The Impact Analysis Group provided the requested 25 film analysis to the program managers in Vehicle FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 15 1 Development, then some of the design and release 2 engineers for the Restraints and the Structures 3 Group. 4 Q Okay. And the crash test management people 5 interacted with who with respect to the work that 6 they were doing, same people? 7 A The crash test management people interact with the 8 Proving Grounds scheduling groups and the design and 9 release engineers to obtain the proper build level 10 parts to build the vehicles to test. 11 Q Okay. Do the crash test management people actually 12 provide feedback to the program managers on the 13 results of the tests? 14 A Yes, they do provide feedback to the program 15 managers on the status of the impact test program. 16 Q Okay. So when -- as a manager of a crash test 17 program, when you run a test, you provide a report 18 to other people, right? 19 A No, no. Actually each test does not generate a 20 report beyond the Vehicle Crash Test Letter. 21 Typically the program is managed at a level that 22 doesn't generate a report for each and every car 23 that you run. 24 Q Okay. So the Crash Test Letter is done for each and 25 every test you run, though? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 16 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Q And the Crash Test letters are signed by the or -- 3 by the crash test manager? 4 A I don't believe they're signed by the manager. I 5 think they're issued by the crash test engineer at 6 Chelsea. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I never did that job but I believe that's where they 9 come from. 10 Q Okay. And do the Crash Test Letters go to the crash 11 test managers? 12 A The program managers in crash test receive the Crash 13 Test Letters. 14 Q Okay. So when you were the vehicle crash test 15 manager for the Grand Cherokee, you got the Crash 16 Test Letters? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Q And then when you got those, you would then provide 19 those to the program development engineers and the 20 release engineers? 21 A Typically you wouldn't provide them the letters; you 22 would talk about a specific result or how the 23 vehicle performed and how -- if the vehicle was 24 going to be modified as a result of those tests. 25 The letters themselves are typically looked at for FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 17 1 the information content they carry and then just 2 that information goes forward, did it pass the test, 3 what was its score, what did it get for crush. That 4 kind of stuff is what's moved forward. The letter 5 itself typically doesn't get a very wide 6 distribution. I'm sure you have a copy of the 7 letter and you can see on the end there's three or 8 four names typically on a Vehicle Crash Test Letter, 9 and that's who it gets distributed to automatically. 10 Q Okay. And when you say that the information -- and 11 you described the information that would get passed 12 on to the development and release engineers -- would 13 that be done orally or would you do it in a writing? 14 A Almost always orally in a meeting. 15 Q Okay. Were there regular meetings held to follow up 16 when crash tests were done on -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q And then you as crash test manager for a particular 19 vehicle would go to the meeting along with the 20 development and release engineers? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And then would there -- would you have a discussion 23 what to do next, something need to be changed or -- 24 A Yes. There would be an engineering problem-solving 25 task, and we would work through it with the group FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 18 1 there, using their engineering expertise and 2 experience in impact test as to what, if anything, 3 should be done to the vehicles. 4 Q Okay. As the vehicle crash test manager for the 5 Jeep Grand Cherokee, did you have some guidelines 6 that you used in evaluating a performance of the 7 vehicle on a crash test? 8 A Yeah. Yes, there are guidelines. 9 Q Okay. What guidelines can you recall using in the 10 '94, '95 time period as it related to the analysis 11 of the Grand Cherokee's crash test performance? 12 A The primary metrics that we used for 208 compliance 13 we had said we wanted to have a 20 percent margin 14 underneath that, and that was basically our 15 guidelines for evaluating performance, were we under 16 our margin, under the federal requirements. 17 Q Okay. And you mentioned specifically 208. 18 A That's the primary impact test work. 19 Q And that -- when you say 20 percent, 20 percent 20 below what, the level of injury criteria? 21 A There are, in 208, required injury criteria. It's 22 20 percent below the required level where we were 23 targeted at. 24 Q All right. And was that a guideline or was that a 25 policy of the company? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 19 1 A It was not a written policy at that time. 2 Q Okay. But it was your standard practice? 3 A It was our standard practice. 4 Q And did you have a guideline or a policy with 5 respect to fuel system performance in the '94 and 6 '95 time period? 7 A In the 301 tests, we wished that the fuel system 8 would have zero leaks, and if they had any leakage 9 at all, we considered that to be a failure. In that 10 the 301 system allows, you'd have five ounces of 11 fluid leakage, any fluid leakage in our test was 12 considered to be a failure, and we would rerun the 13 test and modify it to avoid any leakage. 14 Q Okay. In the '94 and '95 time period was there any 15 guideline or criteria with respect to contact 16 between the fuel tank and components such as the 17 axle, shocks, rear suspension? 18 A No, at that time there wasn't any written guideline. 19 Q Was there an understood guideline that -- similar to 20 the 20 percent injury criteria for the 208 test? 21 A What we wanted to do was to get the vehicle to 22 perform up to the standard and exceed it in terms of 23 leakage, and there are certain things you don't want 24 to introduce in the field around the gas tank. We 25 didn't want to have any sharp edges around the gas FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 20 1 tank. We wouldn't want to have any things that came 2 to a point either in a fold or as a mechanical 3 device, but in terms of contact itself, there 4 weren't any guidelines regarding what it should and 5 shouldn't run into, but more along the lines of the 6 shape and formation of the things that it came in 7 contact with. 8 Q Did you have an understanding that if you saw 9 contact but it didn't produce a leak that that would 10 be investigated further by the development or 11 release engineers? 12 A I think in the broadest terms of contact, no, 13 because it's -- it is trapped between two pieces of 14 metal and it is always in contact, so just contact, 15 no; it was contact with a specific item that has 16 like, I said a sharp edge or ability to pierce. 17 Those kinds of items where they had contact, we 18 investigated further. 19 Q In your test reports that the test engineers did and 20 then gave to you as the vehicle test -- crash test 21 manager, were the engineers running the tests asked 22 to document things that they saw that they wanted to 23 alert the downstream people to? 24 A If it's -- if you run the test and there's a visible 25 problem, then the guys at the proving grounds, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 21 1 whether they were the engineers or the union 2 mechanics in build-up and tear-down for that, were 3 instructed to write on their report what they could 4 see. In vehicle crash tests there are a lot of 5 things that you can't see. They get folded, they 6 get compressed, they are hidden from view, and so 7 some of the tests, they'll say, it had a failure, we 8 don't know why, and some of them they'll say it had 9 a failure and you can see it without disassembly, 10 and write down that reason. 11 Q Did you ask them, though, typically if they saw 12 something, to note it in the crash test remarks 13 section? 14 A Yeah, if it's visible and you can see it without 15 disassembling -- they were very well instructed not 16 disassemble the vehicle -- then that was in the 17 remarks. 18 Q And the remarks then would include observations that 19 might raise a concern about the vehicle's 20 performance on the test? 21 A They might. 22 Q Were there any particular things that the engineers 23 were asked to note that ran the crash tests? 24 A I think that there wasn't like a list or there 25 wasn't a series of guidelines. I believe that you FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 22 1 rely on the engineer's good judgement and his 2 training to recognize things that were hazardous, 3 and experience basically tells you is it a sharp 4 edge, has it got a point, in terms of the fuel 5 systems, and there are areas where you want to look 6 to see is the vehicle performing the way I intended 7 it to on the structure of the vehicle, did it have 8 structural things you can tell, did it perform -- 9 are the welds connected, you know. These are the 10 kinds of things that an engineer, when they review a 11 vehicle, would look for to determine its 12 performance. 13 Q And then those notes would be -- trigger someone 14 taking a look and seeing whether further 15 investigation needed to occur? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Okay. 18 A If they were written in the test letter. 19 Q Right. 20 A I'm going to get a glass of water. 21 Q Let me ask you to take a look at a document we 22 marked earlier today. It's Lazarus Exhibit 10. It 23 says Fuel Systems & Impact. 24 A Thank you. 25 Q Have you ever seen this before? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 23 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. If you would like to take a moment to look 3 through it, do you know who Ginny Fischbach is? 4 A I know Ginny Fischbach. 5 Q Is she someone that you've worked with? 6 A Yes. 7 Q In what capacity? 8 A She was a manager for the truck impact program. 9 Q Okay. Is she someone that you interacted with while 10 you were in Impact Analysis? 11 MS. FOGEL: Objection to the form. 12 THE WITNESS: The -- Ginny Fischbach, I met 13 her first when I came to the Jeep/Truck Engineering 14 Group to do impact management. 15 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Okay. And what was -- what was 16 the nature of your interaction? 17 A She was a manager in a parallel program on parallel 18 vehicles and sat about 20 feet from me. 19 Q Okay. I would like you to take a look at this, and 20 I'm going to ask you to focus on a couple of 21 specific pages, but just generally let me know when 22 you've had a chance to kind of flip through it and 23 become familiar with the document. 24 While you're looking, I'm going to go ahead 25 and mark a copy of this document as Estes Exhibit 1. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 24 1 Okay? Having reviewed this document, does 2 it appear to contain test procedures and protocol 3 that existed during the time that you worked as the 4 vehicle crash test manager for the Grand Cherokee? 5 A Yeah. After my cursory review here today, it does 6 appear to contain the same kinds of processes that I 7 ran. 8 Q Okay. And if you look at Proposed Legislation, the 9 page that has that heading, under 5125, do you see 10 at the bottom bullet point it says, "Rule making not 11 expected until late 1997?? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And that would appear to place this document at some 14 time predating 1997. Is that a fair understanding 15 of what we have here? 16 MS. FOGEL: I'm going to object to the 17 form. 18 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Go ahead. 19 A It seems very speculative, but I don't know. 20 Q Is there anything in what you reviewed in this 21 document that appears to you to be a procedure or 22 policy that was not in place in 1994 or '95, '96? 23 MS. FOGEL: Objection to the form. 24 THE WITNESS: I haven't had time to really 25 absorb all of it, and I can't say for sure whether FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 25 1 there's anything in here that I did or didn't 2 normally do. I'd like to really read through it. 3 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Yeah. Well, why don't we go 4 ahead and take a break and let you read through it 5 with the understanding that I'm going to ask you 6 that question when we come back from the break, and 7 so I'm going to ask you to point out things that you 8 do not believe were policies or procedures prior to 9 1997, so between '94 and '97, okay? 10 MS. FOGEL: May I hear the question read 11 back again, please. 12 (Record read as follows: 13 "Q Is there anything in what you 14 reviewed in this document that appears 15 to you to be a procedure or policy 16 that was not in place in 1994 or '95, 17 '96?") 18 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Okay? 19 MS. SPAGNOLI: So we'll go off the record. 20 MS. FOGEL: I'm going to object to the 21 form, and I just want to say also an objection to 22 the form, it assumes things that have not been 23 placed into evidence, and that was my objection to 24 the form. 25 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. Let's go off the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 26 1 record and I'll ask you to take a closer look and -- 2 THE WITNESS: Is there any specific areas 3 out of these 30 pages that you want me to really 4 look at? 5 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Well, it's actually -- I realize 6 it's a lot of pages, and I think it's 15 pages all 7 together, and it's a presentation form, so it's 8 actually not a lot of information per page, so I 9 really want you to just take a thorough look at it 10 and tell me if there's something that stands out to 11 you as not being a policy or procedure in place 12 between 1994 and the end of 1996; okay? 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Going off the record at 14 2:30 p.m. 15 (Off the record.) 16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the 17 record at 2:32 p.m. 18 MS. FOGEL: I also just want to state an 19 objection for the record that this document was the 20 subject of some questioning by DaimlerChrysler 21 through Robert Banta, and is a document that has 22 been described by the witness as one that he has 23 never seen before. The purpose that we're here for 24 today with regard to DaimlerChrysler's deposition by 25 additional witnesses is to fill in the gaps of the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 27 1 information that the plaintiffs represented 2 Mr. Banta was unable to respond to. To now show a 3 document to a witness that he has never seen before, 4 one which Mr. Banta was able to respond to, is 5 outside the parameters of what we're here for today. 6 That being said, we'll allow the witness answer. 7 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. 8 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): And, again, Mr. Estes, I'm 9 asking you to discuss this document in the context 10 of your position in '94 and '95 and '96 as the 11 vehicle crash test manager for the Jeep Grand 12 Cherokee which is the vehicle involved in this 13 incident and that we're here about, and so now 14 you've indicated off the record that you had an 15 opportunity to review the material that's presented 16 here, and you made a statement before we went on the 17 record and I just want to get that on the record. 18 Having reviewed this document, do you 19 believe that the items in it reflect policies and 20 procedures that were in place during 1994, 1995 and 21 1996 when you were the manager of the vehicle crash 22 test program for the Grand Cherokee? 23 MS. FOGEL: Objection to the form. You can 24 answer. 25 THE WITNESS: I agree with the philosophy FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 28 1 and techniques that's put forth in this document. 2 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Okay. If you take a look at 3 Fuel System Design for Safety -- it's page 5126 and 4 5127 -- 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q -- the first bullet point says, "Absolute vs 7 potential test failure." Can you explain what that 8 means? 9 A No. I don't know what exactly she meant there. 10 Q Okay. Do you have -- have you used the term 11 potential test failure in the course of your work as 12 a crash test manager? 13 A No, no, neither one of those terms is common. 14 Q "The first point under that heading says, "design 15 for zero leakage," and you've told us that was your 16 expectation and guideline for the 301 test, correct? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q And then the next bullet point says, "contact with 19 unfriendly surface is unacceptable." Is that an 20 accurate statement of your policy at that time? 21 A Yeah. As I said before, I tried to define 22 unfriendly in a more technical way, but, yes, 23 unfriendly surfaces are unacceptable. 24 Q And then the next point says, "any contact with tank 25 accessories is unacceptable." Can you tell us what FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 29 1 that meant? 2 A I've never heard it termed as tank accessories quite 3 that way before, and so I'm unclear exactly what 4 that includes. I would have probably gone for a 5 different description, I think, of what I think it 6 includes, but I wouldn't have said accessories. It 7 sort of seems like it was a garnish more than a 8 required part. 9 Q Okay. What part -- what would you have described 10 instead of using the word accessories, components? 11 A Components, subsystems. There's a fuel pump system 12 on top. There's a vent on system on top of it, and 13 contact with those is unacceptable. 14 Q Okay. On the next page, under Fuel System Design 15 for Safety, there's a bullet point that says, "Test 16 issues and post test inspection," and the first item 17 on that list says, "check for secondary problem 18 areas." What does that mean to you? 19 A I don't know what she meant to say there. 20 Q Okay. The next item says, "be careful not to 21 discount as 'anomaly.'" Does that have a meaning to 22 you? 23 A That does have a meaning to me. Because of the 24 small sample size in vehicle crash tests, it 25 happened in one car and I never saw it before, some FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 30 1 people will say, oh, that's an anomaly in a lot of 2 testing, engineering testing where they have larger 3 samples, sometimes the word anomaly or a flyer. 4 That is a response that as the vehicle crash test 5 program manager you can't allow. If it occurred 6 once in any test, you have to design out that flaw. 7 Q Okay. The next item says, "check for post test 8 springback." Can you tell us what that means? 9 A Metal, especially when in complex shapes, when 10 compressed and deformed beyond its limit, will 11 return to its previous shape once the force that 12 compressed it or distorted the metal is removed, and 13 you can see like a bow where things bent and 14 touched, and now after the test, they're separated, 15 and you have to look for those areas where in the 16 dynamic crush of the test contact might have been 17 made but is not currently in contact. 18 Q Okay. And where you see those types of contacts 19 that may have occurred during dynamic crush, is that 20 also something that you then follow up and do 21 further investigation? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And then "inspect for any contact with the 24 fuel system," that seems to be kind of a catch-all, 25 and that is what you're looking for, correct? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 31 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. I'm next going to show you a document that 3 was previously marked as Exhibit 8 to Mr. Lazarus' 4 deposition, and I will mark this as Exhibit 2 to 5 your deposition. 6 A This one? 7 Q Yeah, thank you. I'm going to grab my copy here. 8 This is a Design Guideline - Fuel Supply. It has a 9 date of January of 1999. Have you ever seen this 10 document before? 11 A No, I have not. 12 Q Do you know who Mark Olex is? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q Okay. Did you provide any input for the development 15 of a written design guideline for fuel systems? 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q Okay. I'm going to ask you to take a look, if you 18 will, at -- under item number -- on the second page, 19 there's a heading Packaging Clearances. Do you see 20 that? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And item No. 6 says, "Axle, bumper, shock, strut and 23 unfriendly surfaces." Okay? Are you with me? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. The second sentence says, "No contact should FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 32 1 occur between these components and the tank during 2 the impact event." Have I read that accurately? 3 A I believe you have. 4 Q Okay. Is that statement an accurate reflection of 5 the guideline that you operated under while serving 6 as the manager of the crash test program for the 7 Jeep Grand Cherokee starting in 1994? 8 A No, it's not. 9 Q Do you have an understanding of when that guideline, 10 became a guideline, if at all, within Chrysler? 11 A No, I don't. This is the first time I've seen it, 12 and it's dated 1999. 13 Q Okay. You told us that you left your position as 14 manager of the crash test program for the Grand 15 Cherokee in '98; is that right? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Q And since then have you had any responsibilities for 18 evaluating impact performance on crash tests? 19 A No, I have not. 20 Q Okay. Have you reviewed any documents in 21 preparation for your deposition today? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q What did you look at? 24 A I looked at compliance reports and Vehicle Crash 25 Test Letters. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 33 1 Q Do you have a list of the reports that you looked 2 at? 3 A I do not. 4 Q Do you have an estimate of how many you looked at? 5 A I would guess it would be four or five. 6 Q And do you have copies of the ones that you looked 7 at? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q When did you look at the reports? 10 A Yesterday. 11 Q Okay. Did you select them yourself or were they 12 given to you to review? 13 A They were given to me. 14 Q Okay. Can you recall any particular test that you 15 looked at? Is there something that you were asked 16 to review and then you have a recollection sitting 17 here today of what test it was and -- that you 18 looked at yesterday? 19 A It was a series of rear impact tests and development 20 and compliance for the ZJ Grand Cherokee. 21 Q Were the tests that you looked at ones where the 22 vehicle had leakage? 23 A Some of them did have leakage, yes. 24 Q And in those cases -- in those test reports that you 25 looked at where there was leakage, did you try and FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 34 1 recollect the test and whether you could recall 2 what -- why there was leakage? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q Were you able to do that on any of the tests you 5 looked at? 6 A On some of them I did remember quite specifically 7 what happened in the test. 8 Q Okay. And other than reviewing the test letters 9 themselves, was there anything else you looked at 10 that helped you recall the events of any particular 11 test? 12 A As I stated before, we looked at the test letters 13 and the vehicle crash test request, which is 14 basically the precursor to the test letter which is 15 after, and the compliance documentation for 1996 and 16 1997. 17 Q Okay. Let's start with the compliance 18 documentation. I'm first going to show you a 19 Compliance Report which we will mark as Exhibit 3 to 20 your deposition. Is this Exhibit 3 that I've 21 presented to you the Compliance Report for the 1996 22 ZJ-body Jeep Grand Cherokee that you reviewed 23 yesterday? 24 A Yes, it appears to be the same. 25 Q Okay. Okay. And just to orient us to what we're FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 35 1 looking at, in this -- in this report you signed the 2 fuel system integrity section as the product 3 engineer on July 12, 1995, correct? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q And does this report contain the actual crash test 6 letters and requests for the crash tests that the 7 compliance decision was based on? 8 A It appears to. I haven't gone through all of them. 9 Yes, they appear to be here. 10 Q Okay. And with respect to the vehicle that was 11 being certified as being in compliance with the fuel 12 system safety requirements, this was a 1996 ZJ-body 13 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and there's a description of 14 the vehicle characteristics on the third page of the 15 document; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In the 1996 model Jeep Grand Cherokee, were there 18 any changes in the frame rails of the vehicle from 19 the prior year model? 20 A I don't believe there was. That would have been 21 brought up in our development, and I don't believe 22 there was. 23 Q Okay. Is that -- if a change in the material or the 24 configuration of the frame rails had been made from 25 the '95 model to the '96 model, is that an item you FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 36 1 would have expected to be documented in the summary 2 here regarding the compliance of the vehicle with 3 the fuel system standard? 4 A If the changes were significant and of a large 5 enough level, they should be listed on this 6 discussion page. 7 Q Okay. If it was a change that would be expected to 8 affect the performance of the vehicle on the crash 9 tests, it would be noted; is that right? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Q And in this case we don't see any reference to any 14 changes in the frame rails between the '95 and '96 15 model years, correct? 16 A No. 17 Q Am I right? 18 A There is no reference to the frame rails. 19 Q Okay. There is a reference to a change in the fuel 20 return line between the 1995 and 1996 model years, 21 correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you have a recollection of what that change was? 24 A No, I don't. That occurred before I was there. 25 Q Okay. You mean the change occurred before you were FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 37 1 there? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 A It indicates it had changed in the 1995 model year, 5 and I came on to test the '96 model year vehicle. 6 Q Okay. And this report is the result of those tests, 7 correct? 8 A The 1996 test. 9 Q Right. Now, in connection with the rear impact 10 performance of the '96 Grand Cherokee, if we look at 11 page 6, does that contain the crash tests that 12 supported your verification that the vehicle was in 13 compliance with the standard? 14 A Page 6 contains the two rear impact crash tests that 15 the compliance document relies on. 16 Q Okay. So in the case of the 1996 Jeep Grand 17 Cherokee, am I correct in understanding that you, as 18 the engineer who certified compliance, relied upon a 19 1991 and a 1992 rear impact test? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And those would have been tests performed on the 22 first model year of the Grand Cherokee; is that 23 right? 24 A They appear to be in the first model year. I did 25 not run those tests myself. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 38 1 Q Okay. Did you review those tests before certifying 2 compliance of the '96 model year vehicle? 3 A The vehicles, I did not review. We looked at the 4 film and the electronic data, and I spoke to the 5 engineer before who had written this, Ed Zylik, the 6 early ones, and that was the review that I 7 conducted. 8 Q Okay. And you then gathered and attached the 9 relevant documents from those tests -- 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q -- with your report that you signed in July of 1995, 12 correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And if we look in the attachments then, if we first 15 look at test 4561, do you see that if you go -- oh, 16 the pages aren't numbered, I'm sorry to say, but 17 about midway through, I see the Safety Test, Vehicle 18 Crash Test Letter for test 4561, 30 mile per hour 19 rear barrier impact, if you could find that page. 20 A You're looking at the Vehicle Crash Test Letter for 21 4561? 22 Q Correct. 23 A Yes, I have it. 24 Q Okay. Now, this vehicle, which is one of the two 25 crash tests that you relied upon to certify the '96 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 39 1 Jeep Grand Cherokee as being -- having complied with 2 the 301 rear impact crash test requirement, involved 3 a vehicle that was a C1 pilot, correct? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Q And a C1 pilot is a vehicle that has been built to 6 production but is before the actual production 7 models are coming off the line; is that right? 8 A The -- as I recall, the C1 pilots are what we called 9 line fill, and they were the pilot cars that are 10 first built as you fill the entire plant 11 manufacturing system, and some of them come off and 12 then you use them for a variety of tests. 13 Q Okay. In this case the vehicle had at least one 14 nonproduction condition, and that was the rear prop 15 shaft was one inch short. Do you see that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you have some understanding of what that meant? 18 A Yeah. I think that the tube that connects the 19 transfer case with the rear axle was not as long as 20 it was intended to be in production. 21 Q Okay. And what would that mean with respect to that 22 part's proximity to fuel system components? Would 23 there be more clearance in this vehicle than on a 24 production vehicle? 25 A No, there wouldn't be. That prop shaft is attached FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 40 1 to a spline, and what it is is it slides in and out 2 of the spline, and the length of the prop shafts are 3 a dynamic thing right at launch, and they're often 4 changed due to the ride and handling characteristics 5 that the last group that touches the car before it 6 goes into production wants, so the fact that it's a 7 little bit shorter or a little bit longer, it still 8 rides on that spline and it's within more or less 9 the exact same place that it would be, no matter 10 what the length is. It only is how far it rides on 11 the spline of the rear axle at suspension travel. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So when this is at full weight, the vehicle will 14 compress the suspension and it will go as far back 15 on the spline, probably no matter what length it is. 16 Q Okay. Now, if we look at the other test, rear 17 impact test that was used to certify compliance, 18 4472 -- if you could find the Crash Test Letter for 19 that. 20 A I don't find it in this package. 21 Q Okay. 22 MS. FOGEL: It should be six pages back -- 23 no, no, sorry. I didn't mean to interject, but I 24 just saw something with 4472 on it. 25 MS. SPAGNOLI: Yeah, actually it's not the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 41 1 Safety Crash Test Letter. 2 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): There is one page of an inter 3 company correspondence dated 12-20-91 that is a few 4 pages past the 4561 letter that we just looked at, 5 and it says "To distribution." Do you see that? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q What is this? 8 A This is the dynamic crush analysis from the film. 9 Q Okay. Does this at least tell you what the build 10 condition of the crash test vehicle was? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And do you see that this vehicle for test 4472 had a 13 trailer towing package? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q Do you have an understanding of what -- what the 16 trailer towing package involved, what components 17 would be attached to the vehicle? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Can you explain? 20 A The trailer towing package should be a U-shaped 21 bracket that has two arms that go fore-aft along the 22 car on the rear body-in-white rails and a cross 23 piece that has mounted onto it a receiver hitch for 24 a Reese hitch. 25 Q Is it your understanding that with respect to these FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 42 1 1993 model Jeep Grand Cherokees, that the trailer 2 towing U-shaped bracket provided some structural 3 rigidity to the frame rails that assisted the 4 vehicle in meeting the 301 crash test requirement? 5 A Could you repeat that question? 6 Q Sure. Is it your understanding that with respect to 7 the 1993 model Jeep Grand Cherokee that was 8 reflected in this test 4472, that the trailer towing 9 bracket that you've just described provided 10 structural rigidity to the frame rails that assisted 11 the vehicle in meeting the 301 rear impact test 12 requirement? 13 A The trailer hitch provides a structural rigidity. 14 All rigidity is not of a benefit, if it increases 15 the stiffness of the vehicle, and often increases 16 the g forces experienced by the vehicle, because it 17 no longer absorbs the energy through crush, so I 18 wouldn't want to categorically state that the 19 rigidity assisted it in passing. 20 Q Did you form an understanding that the trailer hitch 21 bracket that was attached to the vehicle tested in 22 crash test 4472 allowed the vehicle to sustain less 23 rear crush and, therefore, allowed the fuel tank to 24 survive the impact without leaks? 25 A The crush is merely transported to another place. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 43 1 When you reinforce the one area of the deck, the 2 energy is still going to be absorbed by the vehicle, 3 and it will be transported to the kick-ups in this 4 particular design. 5 MS. SPAGNOLI: Move to strike as 6 nonresponsive. 7 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Do you need to hear my question 8 again? 9 A Sure. 10 Q Did you have an understanding that the trailer hitch 11 bracket that was attached to vehicle 4472 allowed 12 the vehicle to sustain less rear crush and, 13 therefore, allowed the fuel tank to survive the test 14 without a leak? 15 MS. FOGEL: Can I hear the answer read 16 back, please, also. 17 (Record read as follows: 18 "Q Did you have an understanding 19 that the trailer hitch bracket that 20 was attached to vehicle 4472 allowed 21 the vehicle to sustain less rear crush 22 and, therefore, allowed the fuel tank 23 to survive the test without a leak") 24 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Can you answer my question, 25 please? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 44 1 A When you put the reinforcing bracket on there, the 2 crush in the vehicle will still absorb the entire 3 energy of the impacting vehicle, the 301 target 4 trailer. The crush in the car will still occur; it 5 just occurs in a different spot. 6 Q And in occurring in a different spot, did it allow 7 management of the crush so that the fuel tank would 8 not be compromised in the test? 9 A The fuel tank is not compromised in either test with 10 or without the trailer hitch, and the trailer hitch 11 doesn't allow for compromising whether it's there or 12 not. 13 Q So is it your opinion based on your review of these 14 tests -- and, of course, we don't have the test 15 report for the 4472 here -- that the vehicle was 16 able to comply with the rear impact crash test 17 requirement without any reinforcement of the frame 18 rail? 19 A The previous vehicle, 4574, shows that it was built 20 without a trailer hitch. 21 Q I think it was actually 4561. 22 A Okay. Let me find that one. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Does that vehicle have a trailer hitch on it? I 25 think that's the answer to your question. Could you FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 45 1 repeat the question then? 2 Q Sure. Is it your opinion from your review of the 3 documents that we're looking at here for these two 4 tests that the '93 Jeep Grand Cherokee did not 5 require reinforcement of the frame rail in order to 6 comply with the 301 rear impact test requirement? 7 A The '93 Jeep Grand Cherokee did not require 8 reinforcement of the rear frame rail to pass the 301 9 rear impact requirement. 10 Q Okay. If you look at the document for 4472 that 11 we've just looked at, do you see that there's a 12 build condition that says, "Rear axle with track bar 13 bracket shield?" Do you know what that is? 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q Did you have some understanding that that shield was 16 put in place in order to allow the vehicle to pass 17 the 301 rear impact test requirement because there 18 had been tank contact and leaks in vehicles that did 19 not have that shield? 20 A No, I didn't understand that that's the purpose of 21 that shield. Track bars are typically a very 22 friendly surface. 23 Q Did you hear anything when you became manager of the 24 crash test program for the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 25 1994 that the Grand Cherokee had had problems FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 46 1 passing the 301 rear impact test in 1992? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you hear anything about leaks that were 4 resulting in the development crash tests in the 5 Grand Cherokee before it was certified for 6 compliance? 7 A In the '92, '93 time frame? 8 Q Right. 9 A No. 10 Q I'm going to mark as Exhibit 4 a December 3, 1990 11 Status Report, Platform Engineering/Jeep Truck 12 Engineering, 1992-1/2 Model Year ZJ Rear Impact 13 Validation Test. There's a paragraph on the bottom 14 of the first page that I'd like you to read. 15 MS. FOGEL: Before you have the witness 16 read it, would you be so kind as to ask him if he's 17 ever seen it before? 18 MS. SPAGNOLI: Sure. 19 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Why don't you read it to 20 yourself and let me ask you if you have heard or 21 seen this -- well, first of all, if you've ever seen 22 the document. 23 A No, I've never seen this before. 24 Q Is this a report that would have been available to 25 you when you became manager of the Jeep Grand FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 47 1 Cherokee crash test program? 2 A Typically development tests like this would not have 3 been available to me. It was issued from the 4 Structures Laboratory, and that's -- that is outside 5 of where I was working. The Structures Laboratory 6 is not in Vehicle Development, and this report 7 probably wouldn't have been part of the Vehicle 8 Development documents. 9 Q Okay. 10 MS. FOGEL: Again, I'm going to object to 11 having the witness read sound bites from the 12 document. He's testified that he's never seen it 13 before, and it's outside the parameters of what his 14 deposition is here for today based on 15 representations to the court why Mr. Banta's 16 deposition wasn't sufficient. 17 MS. SPAGNOLI: Well, I think he's here 18 today to talk about the performance of the Jeep 19 Grand Cherokee in crash testing. I think I'm 20 entitled to know whether anyone informed him before 21 he took the job in 1994 that the ZJ rear impact 22 validation testing had demonstrated fuel tank 23 punctures from an unfriendly corner on the track bar 24 mounting bracket in the first model of the vehicle. 25 I'm entitled to know whether that's something he was FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 48 1 aware of when he took over the program, or are you 2 saying that I'm not entitled to know that? 3 MS. FOGEL: What I'm saying is you just 4 asked him if he ever saw that document before and he 5 testified that he didn't. 6 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. Then I'll ask the 7 next question. 8 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Did anyone tell you when you 9 took on the job as manager of the crash test 10 development program for the Grand Cherokee that the 11 program level ZJ vehicle had been subjected to rear 12 impact validation tests to verify conformance to 13 Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 301 and that 14 the vehicle did not meet the FMVSS 301 requirements 15 because the fuel tank was punctured by an unfriendly 16 corner on the track bar mounting bracket? 17 A No. There were probably many changes of the nature 18 like this that I was not told of. Once they're 19 instituted in the vehicle, they become current 20 production intent, they're typically not carried 21 forward. 22 Q Okay. So the fact that that had occurred in the 23 development of the vehicle before it was put on the 24 market and validated by your predecessor for the 25 1993 model year was not something that would have FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 49 1 been, you believe, felt to be important to bring to 2 your attention; is that right? 3 A It appears to me, based on this document that you 4 have just showed me now, that the fuel tank issue 5 that was caused by the track bar mounting bracket 6 was modified and fixed. 7 Q Okay. And do you know if that modification or fix 8 is the addition of the track bar bracket shield that 9 is referred to in the letter regarding test 4472? 10 A I cannot say that with certainty, but I assume that. 11 Q Kind of sounds like it's connected to that earlier 12 issue; is that right? 13 A Yes, it does appear to be that way. 14 Q Now, if you look further back in the documents -- 15 I'm looking at the Fuel System and Static Rollover 16 Summaries -- for the tests that were attached as 17 part of your Compliance Report for the 1996 Jeep 18 Grand Cherokee -- do you see -- can you locate for 19 me the Fuel System and Static Rollover Summary for 20 test No. 4472? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And can you read for me what the post-test condition 23 notes are that were written in that summary. 24 A Not very well. I believe it says, "Contacted by 25 track bar bracket left front corner. Contacted by FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 50 1 differential housing on rear." It's hard to believe 2 that says rear. There's another mark I cannot 3 interpret. 4 Q Okay. And the differential housing would have been 5 forward of the tank, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And the contact by the track bar bracket left front 8 corner is exactly the same type of contact that's 9 referenced in the development report that we looked 10 at, Exhibit 2, correct? 11 A I believe that that's exactly where they added the 12 shielding to prevent the tank from being punctured, 13 yes. 14 Q Okay. And you're assuming that based upon the fact 15 that this note indicates that there was contact in 16 that location? 17 A Yes. That says "The bracket," and on the same side 18 it has, "This bracket has been modified," and then 19 earlier in the design it talks about a track bar 20 shield. I believe they're all the same part. 21 Q Okay. So based on reviewing these documents, am I 22 correct in understanding that the test 4472, there 23 was contact between the tank and two different 24 components of the vehicle in this test? 25 A That's what's noted in the test summary. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 51 1 Q Okay. And if you could now flip to the test summary 2 for test 4561, also for this test, also was used to 3 certify compliance of the 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4 and we -- have you found that page? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 Q Okay. And can you read for me what the notes are in 7 the Post Test Condition next to Tank. 8 A This one says, "Contacts: Bumper, TRK bar, TRK bar 9 BRKT [and] tailpipe, axle." 10 Q Okay. Is that tailpipe comma axle? 11 A I think it is a comma. 12 Q Okay. So in the case of test 4561, which you used 13 to certify compliance of the 1996 model Jeep Grand 14 Cherokee with the fuel system standard, there were, 15 in fact, contacts, multiple contacts between the 16 tank and components of the vehicle; is that right? 17 A It indicates there were multiple areas in contact 18 with the tank. 19 Q We have bumper, the track bar, the track bar 20 bracket, the tailpipe and the axle. Those are five 21 different locations of contact, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And then under Straps, can you read what's written 24 there. 25 A It says, "Left J-hook slipped out of slot." FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 52 1 Q What is a J-hook? 2 A There is a hook that holds the strap in place in 3 contact with the body-in-white. 4 Q Does that mean that if the hook slips out of the 5 slot, the tank would become loosened? 6 A It would become -- the straps, when it's in its 7 design condition, hold the tank in place. In the 8 impact test, typically the distance between the two 9 strap ends, which are held with J-hooks one end and 10 a bolt on the other, become foreshortened. There's 11 crush and it would not be unusual for the J-hook to 12 move relative to the body in the slot. 13 Q But it usually doesn't slip out of the slot, right? 14 A It's not -- occurs 100 percent of the time, but it's 15 not unusual for the J-hook to have moved within its 16 slot. 17 MS. SPAGNOLI: Move to strike as 18 nonresponsive. 19 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Is it unusual for the J-hook to 20 slip out of the slot? 21 A The J-hooks slip out of the slot occasionally. 22 Q Is that an acceptable result in a compliance test? 23 A The J-hooks can be taken out of the slot during the 24 test while still maintaining the fuel tank in its 25 proper place, and review of the film and review of FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 53 1 the electronic data would determine whether that 2 result was or was not acceptable. 3 Q Did you review that film in this case for this test? 4 A I have no specific memory of reviewing that film, 5 but that is how I trained engineers and how I was 6 probably trained when I came on board. 7 Q Okay. Do you know if you actually reviewed the two 8 crash tests that we've been talking about before you 9 certified compliance, or did you rely upon the fact 10 that your predecessor had found those tests to be 11 acceptable? 12 A I would have looked at every film in the compliance 13 documents and relied on the fact that my predecessor 14 had found them acceptable. 15 Q Now -- 16 A In the review, you would be looking for things along 17 the lines that would stand out to you that might not 18 have been there. 19 Q Is it correct, sir, that after you certified 20 compliance of the 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee in July 21 of 1995, that you initiated or suggested that 22 additional work needed to be done to modify the 23 vehicle to improve its performance on the rear 24 impact test? 25 A When we did the '96 Grand Cherokee, they were trying FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 54 1 to introduce a new design for the fuel tank. The 2 subsequent work in '97 was to try to get that fuel 3 tank to pass the compliance tests and the 4 DaimlerChrysler guidelines. 5 Q The work that was initiated to obtain compliance for 6 the '97 vehicle was beyond changing the fuel tank, 7 correct? 8 A There is a suite of changes that came along with 9 that fuel tank change. 10 Q What changes that affected performance? 11 A Performance in what? 12 Q On the 301 tests. 13 A The exact changes, I wouldn't be able to detail 14 them. In a general way, I knew that they included a 15 new kind of tank and a new kind of vent line and a 16 new kind of fuel pump. 17 Q Any other changes that you believe were implemented 18 for the '97 model to improve the performance of the 19 vehicle on the 301 impact tests, rear impact tests? 20 A In the rear impact tests, to get the second vehicle 21 to pass, we added a bracket which was originally 22 part of the trailer hitch onto the '97 Grand 23 Cherokee structures. 24 Q What did that have to do with the change of the fuel 25 tank? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 55 1 A The way the fuel tank is manufactured is different, 2 and the way the fill and vent lines are attached to 3 the tank is different, and the way that those fill 4 and vent lines stayed attached to the tank performed 5 differently from the '96 to the '97 model year. 6 Q What does that have to do with the -- a bracket in 7 the frame rail? 8 A The bracket in the frame rail prevented crush, as we 9 spoke before. It translated the crush to a 10 different part of the car and prevented crush at the 11 attachment of the fill and vent lines to the tank so 12 that they would stay attached. 13 Q Where were the fill and vent lines for the tank, 14 what side of the tank? 15 A Left side. 16 Q Isn't it true that with respect to the 1997 vehicle 17 model Jeep Grand Cherokee, that the reason for the 18 track -- I'm sorry, the reason for the frame rail 19 reinforcement was because of excessive crush that 20 you got on a crash test in 1995? 21 A The crush is the same from vehicle to vehicle. What 22 we saw was the performance of the attachment to the 23 fuel line and vent to the tank. That's where the 24 difference was. 25 Q You don't have a recollection of having an anomaly, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 56 1 a test involving a 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee where 2 you had crush in the frame rail that was more 3 excessive than you had experienced in earlier tests? 4 A No, I don't have any recollection of a change in 5 crush from car to car. There was a change in 6 performance with new parts on it that we were trying 7 to put into the '96 vehicles, but I don't recall 8 anything in crush from vehicle to vehicle being 9 different. 10 Q You don't have a recollection of a test where there 11 was what was described as excessive crush after you 12 certified compliance of the '96 model year vehicle? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q I'm going to hand you what I'm marking as Exhibit 5, 15 which is a March 2, 1995 memo, and Exhibit 6, a 16 Safety Test, Vehicle Crash Test Request. Have you 17 had an opportunity to read both of those documents? 18 A Yes, I have glanced over them. 19 Q Okay. Does this refresh your recollection that 20 there was a test of a 1996 production vehicle that 21 had a crush pattern that was quite different from 22 prior vehicles? 23 A Different, I remember that they would -- there was a 24 change in the way it crushed, but it wasn't 25 excessive. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 57 1 Q There was excessive fuel leakage in the test that 2 exhibited the different crush, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And where was the leakage from in that tests ZJ8602? 5 A Do you have the Proving Grounds Test Summary for 6 ZJ8602? 7 Q No, sir. I've asked for it and it's not been 8 produced. All I have is the Vehicle Crash Test 9 Request which you can see does not contain any of 10 the information concerning the results of the test, 11 and that's what's been marked as Exhibit 6. 12 MS. FOGEL: I don't believe that's a rear 13 impact crash test, that number. 14 MS. SPAGNOLI: Well, counsel, are you 15 testifying? 16 MS. FOGEL: You said that you asked for 17 it -- 18 MS. SPAGNOLI: Right. 19 MS. FOGEL: -- and I'm just telling you 20 that I don't think that that was part of the 21 request. I'll go back and take a look and see. 22 MS. SPAGNOLI: Well, the Crash Test Request 23 says 30 mile per hour rear barrier. I've repeatedly 24 asked. I've been provided with a request that 25 doesn't contain the results of the test. It's been FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 58 1 repeatedly asked for. I've been told I've been 2 given everything. 3 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): So, Mr. Estes, do you know where 4 the leak occurred in crash test 8602? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q Do you know what the crush was that was different in 7 this 1996 production Jeep Grand Cherokee? 8 A As I recall, the kick ups were almost vertical after 9 the test, which is what I'm trying to remember for 10 this particular test. 11 Q If you look at Exhibit 6, Build Condition, the test 12 8602 was not a test where you were testing the 13 different fuel tank; is that right? 14 A The 1996 co-extruded fuel tank is the description of 15 the new tank, and I think that ZJ8602 was the new 16 tank. 17 Q Okay. The crush that you're referring to in the 18 kick-up area had nothing to do with the different 19 tank, did it? 20 A No. 21 Q Did it? 22 A The crush in the kick-up area did not have anything 23 to do with the specific tank that was in the 24 vehicle. 25 Q So I'm correct? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 59 1 A Is that what you said, that the tank did not cause 2 the crush in the kick-up area? 3 Q Right, yes. Am I correct? 4 A The tank did not cause the difference in the crush 5 at the kick-up area. 6 Q Okay. So what was going on in this case was a 7 result in the structural components of the vehicle 8 surrounding the tank that led to excessive fuel 9 leakage so that the vehicle in the test did not 10 comply with the standard, correct? 11 A You can't make that leap of faith that the reason 12 for the leakage was due to the performance of the 13 structure until I can see or remember what it was 14 that caused that leakage. The fact that it 15 performed differently, all the vehicles perform 16 within some variation. They have a pattern and 17 sometimes it's a little bit more this way, a little 18 bit that way. To say that the change in that 19 pattern led directly to that leakage, you can't say. 20 Q Well, we know two things about the test from what 21 we've been given. One is that there was leakage in 22 excess of the standard, correct? 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q And the second is that there was a crush pattern 25 that was quite different from prior vehicles, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 60 1 correct? 2 A That's the way I described it then, yes. 3 Q Okay. And beyond what we see here, you cannot tell 4 us what it was that caused the different crush 5 pattern in the test vehicle ZJ8602, correct? 6 A I don't remember any causal for that, at the time. 7 Right now I don't remember what the exact cause was. 8 I have a remembrance that one of our tests -- and I 9 believe it was this one -- had a change in the way 10 the pattern was at the kick-ups between the floor 11 and the rear deck. I think that's what I wrote at 12 the time. 13 Q And do you think that that resulting crush pattern 14 allowed greater crush, thereby necessitating 15 structural reinforcements in the subsequent model 16 vehicle? 17 A The car that I'm recalling which -- and as I sit 18 here and think about it, I'm having a little bit of 19 difficulty making sure it was exactly this vehicle. 20 The crush that happened didn't happen around the 21 tank. The tank would have been less crushed if this 22 was the kick-up area geometry that I'm recalling. 23 It moved the vehicle farther up, the rear deck of 24 the vehicle up further and the performance of the 25 rear rails left them perpendicular to the bottom of FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 61 1 the car whereas they're typically not quite that 2 perpendicular. They're actually not that way at 3 all. They're, in fact, crushed rearward back where 4 the tank was, and the one that I remember, which I 5 think is this vehicle, left the rear rails vertical 6 afterwards. 7 Q And can you answer my question whether that crush 8 pattern necessitated a structural reinforcement in 9 the subsequent model vehicle? 10 A No, that crush pattern is not what we were 11 attempting to modify with the reinforcement bracket 12 there. 13 Q Well, what were you attempting to modify with the 14 reinforcement bracket? 15 A The reinforcement bracket on the '97 ZJ was added to 16 prevent the closure of a hole in the rear rail where 17 the fill and vent lines pass through it. It was a 18 pass-through hole. 19 Q So you wanted that hole to stay open so that the 20 vent line and the fuel fill line would not be 21 severed in a crash? 22 A We did not ever see them being severed, but they 23 would have contact from the rail as it would close 24 and deform around it. We wanted to prevent the 25 contact of the frame rail with the fill and vent FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 62 1 lines, and the only way we came up with to do that 2 was to add this reinforcing angle bracket. 3 Q And why did you have the fuel line and the vent line 4 routed through the frame rail? 5 A That's a decision that I didn't make, and -- as a 6 vehicle development test engineer. That was done by 7 the architecture and body-in-white guys to where the 8 fill and vent line would go. 9 Q Do you have an explanation for why they chose to 10 route those lines through the frame rail? 11 A I choose not to speculate on their reasons. I don't 12 know exactly why they did. I would only give you my 13 own personal opinion for what might have been their 14 reason, but what their exact reasons were, I 15 couldn't say. 16 Q Are there any other Chrysler vehicles that you're 17 familiar with that routed a fuel fill line and a 18 vent line through a frame rail, a hole in a frame 19 rail? 20 A None that I'm familiar with, but I don't know the 21 details of all our vehicles. 22 MS. SPAGNOLI: Let's take a short break, if 23 that's okay with everyone. 24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Going off the record at 25 3:31 p.m. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 63 1 (Off the record.) 2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're back on the record 3 at 3:37 p.m. 4 MS. SPAGNOLI: I just want to request that 5 we be -- that I be provided copies of the documents 6 that you showed the witness yesterday. 7 MS. FOGEL: Okay. For purposes of the 8 record, everything that was showed to the witness 9 yesterday were already provided to counsel, but I'll 10 identify it for the record, and those were the -- 11 those were the Safety Test, Vehicle Crash Test 12 Requests for the vehicles for '96 and '97. 13 MS. SPAGNOLI: Can you give me the test 14 numbers? 15 MS. FOGEL: Yes, I can, 5339, 5380, 40 -- 16 5441, all the way to the end. 17 MS. SPAGNOLI: Can you just read the 18 numbers for me? 19 MS. FOGEL: 5493, 5890, 5493. Did I say 20 that one already? 21 MS. SPAGNOLI: Uh-huh. 22 MS. FOGEL: 5681, 5789, 5890, 5927, 5967. 23 MS. SPAGNOLI: And were you -- were these 24 just the test requests or the safety -- the crash 25 test letters. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 64 1 MS. FOGEL: They were the Vehicle Crash 2 Test Letter and the Vehicle Crash Test Request. 3 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. 4 MS. FOGEL: And the only other thing that 5 was showed to the witness was the memo from March of 6 '95, I believe, that you showed to him already and 7 has been marked as an exhibit. 8 THE WITNESS: And the compliance documents. 9 MS. FOGEL: Oh, yes, and the compliance 10 documents for '96, '97 but not the full set that you 11 marked today. It was just the first couple pages. 12 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. The letters, what we 13 were just talking about, Exhibit 5? 14 MS. FOGEL: I don't have a copy of the 15 exhibits. 16 MS. SPAGNOLI: I'm sorry. 17 MS. FOGEL: That's correct. 18 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Mr. Estes, can I just confirm 19 that in terms of the material that you reviewed, 20 other than this letter which references a rear 21 impact test, ZJ8602, you have not seen the Crash 22 Test Letter for that report in your preparation for 23 your deposition; is that right? 24 A Which report? 25 Q 8602. That was not on the list of what was just FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 65 1 read, correct? 2 A The Crash Test Letter and Crash Test Report is on 3 the list that was just read. 4 Q 8602 was on the list? 5 A The vehicle number, ZJ8602, is on the list. 6 Q The Crash Test Letter for 8602? 7 MS. FOGEL: Can we go off the record for a 8 minute? 9 MS. SPAGNOLI: No. 10 MS. FOGEL: I don't want to testify. You 11 can ask the witness. 12 MS. SPAGNOLI: Well, you just read me a 13 list of what you showed him. 14 MS. FOGEL: That's correct. 15 MS. SPAGNOLI: And that did not contain 16 that document. 17 MS. FOGEL: It did not contain that vehicle 18 test number, correct. 19 MS. SPAGNOLI: So the witness is telling me 20 he saw a test letter for VC8602, and I need to know 21 why there's a discrepancy in what you showed him and 22 what he's saying he saw. 23 MS. FOGEL: Fine. Ask the witness to 24 explain. 25 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Where did you see it? FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 66 1 A The document that you gave me references ZJ8602 and 2 cross references to a vehicle crash test No. 5380. 3 5380 is on the list that you were just read. And I 4 reviewed vehicle crash test 5380 yesterday. 5 MS. FOGEL: I tried to tell you that before 6 but you accused me of testifying. 7 MS. SPAGNOLI: Well, you were testifying. 8 THE WITNESS: That's what those first two 9 columns do. There's vehicle build numbers and 10 there's vehicle crash numbers, and it associates the 11 vehicle build number, which when you're in the 12 engineering community, you talk about which vehicle 13 build number it is and then when it becomes a test, 14 it gets a vehicle crash number. 15 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Okay. 16 A And the vehicle build number is referenced in that 17 letter as ZJ8602, and that goes to the Vehicle Crash 18 Test Letter VC5380. 19 Q Okay. Was there a crush measurement taken for 5380? 20 A I don't remember. Why don't I look through the 21 document and see if it has it here. It's not there. 22 It's not here. I don't have it in the documents in 23 front of me. 24 Q I'm going to mark as Exhibit 7 crash test VC5380. 25 A Thank you. There was a dynamic crush analysis FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 67 1 performed on 53 -- 2 Q Tell me what page you're looking at. 3 A This page, ma'am. 4 Q Okay. Signed by Mr. Roberson (sic) and Mr. 5 Carlisle? 6 A Anderson. 7 Q I'm sorry. Carlisle is the second name? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Q Anderson is the first name. And what was the 10 dynamic crush in this test that was measured? 11 A In the test 5380? 12 Q Right. 13 A It shows dynamic crush of 22.3 inches. 14 Q Okay. Where is there a description of the kick-up 15 crush that you were describing? 16 A It's not written down, and that would have been only 17 in what I was remembering. 18 Q So the test report itself does not contain any 19 description of the crush in the kick-up area of the 20 frame rails that you've described; is that right? 21 A Let's see here. In the very last page, there is a 22 photograph, and in that photograph you can see the 23 vertical rail section that I was describing. It's a 24 terrible little photograph, mind you, but this 25 section here is the rail that I was trying describe. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 68 1 They should be at an angle which is something like 2 30 degrees as they come up in the pre-test state, 3 and here they are vertical. There were photographs 4 taken of that specific area, and attached here to 5 this document. 6 Q Okay. And as you sit here today, you have no 7 explanation for why the unusual configuration after 8 the crash test occurred in that area? 9 A Well, this is what I wanted to see because I wasn't 10 certain when you had asked me before without this 11 photograph to remind me. It looks to me like there 12 were cold welds, and it's hard to tell from this 13 photograph, but those black spots are classic that 14 the car either -- right there, those welds pulled 15 through, or there were welds around it that were 16 missing. You can't tell from this photograph that 17 sometimes the vehicles have welds that are broken in 18 this area, and they're not supposed to break, but 19 when they do, the vehicle performs like this, and as 20 you can see, the gas tank rises up over the 21 suspension and translates more forward, and that's 22 what you get as a result of it. It's actually in 23 geometry sometimes a favorable thing, but it is 24 different than what it is designed to do. 25 Q Are you saying it's favorable if you have weld FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 69 1 failures? 2 A In this case, under the performance of the vehicle 3 in this regard, those weld failures allow it to be 4 less crushed. Now, it's not entirely clear when you 5 look at this other page of photographs, but you can 6 see that the crush has translated for rear impact 7 into the area there by the wheel well, whereas the 8 section around the rear window is typically where 9 the crush occurs, so it's in a different spot. It's 10 moved. 11 MS. SPAGNOLI: Not responsive. 12 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Are you saying it is a favorable 13 result to have weld failures in a crash test? 14 A In this crash test, the particular welds in that 15 area perform favorably to the 301 requirement of 16 leak test. 17 Q So you're saying Chrysler wants the welds to fail in 18 that area? 19 MS. FOGEL: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. The welds are necessary 21 for many other functions in the vehicle. When it 22 performed like this, it was the first time that I 23 had seen it, and that's why I made note of it in the 24 letter, and the first time and the last time that it 25 had occurred, these welds are necessary to the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 70 1 performance of the vehicle. In the performance of 2 the vehicle in a crash test, they allow a different 3 kind of geometry to be created, which you can 4 interpret as being favorable. 5 Q Did you -- you just said you noted the weld failures 6 in the letter. Where did you do that, sir? 7 A The photographs that are attached to this letter 8 that you gave me. 9 Q No, sir. Where in the test did you note in the 10 letter weld failures in the frame rail? 11 A You can see in the photograph these spots, and 12 that's where I'm seeing it. To have written a 13 description of them, I did not write that into the 14 letter. 15 Q Okay. You just said you noted it in the letter, so 16 that was not an accurate statement; am I right? 17 MS. FOGEL: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: The document that you handed 19 me is labeled the Test Letter, and that's where I 20 see them here. 21 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Okay. Let me reread your 22 testimony in response to my prior question. You 23 said, "When it performed like this, it was the first 24 time that I had seen it and that's why I made note 25 of it in the letter." You did not make note of the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 71 1 weld failures in the letter -- 2 A No. 3 Q -- true? 4 A I made note of the -- what exactly did we say? The 5 crush pattern was quite different from previous 6 vehicles, and that is the note that I made. 7 Q And that's not in the letter, correct? 8 A The Vehicle Crash Test Letter, it's not in that 9 letter. 10 Q Okay. There's no mention of weld failures in the 11 Vehicle Crash Test Letter, is there? 12 A I don't believe there is. 13 Q Okay. And you're saying that in this test you 14 believe the weld failures that you can tell from the 15 black and white photocopy of the photograph, in 16 fact, enhanced the performance of the 1996 Jeep 17 Grand Cherokee on the 301 rear impact test; is that 18 right? 19 MS. FOGEL: Objection to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: There are what appear to me 21 to be a separation, and these are -- should be 22 welded, and when that occurred, this shape lifted 23 the gas tank higher than it was in a normal impact 24 test. 25 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): And your testimony is that that FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 72 1 was a good result for this tank in this test? 2 MS. FOGEL: Objection to the form. You can 3 answer. 4 THE WITNESS: The result of the tank's 5 movement, it -- I want to say it very clearly. 6 Bringing the tank up and away from the other 7 suspension components does not force it into contact 8 with the axle and the track bar that we had talked 9 about earlier. Lifting the tank has a positive 10 effect of removing it from other objects it may have 11 contacted. That should help the tank perform in an 12 impact test better. 13 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): Better in the sense that the 14 tank is less likely to come in contact with 15 something that could cause a leak? 16 A Yes. If you are able to have any part of the fuel 17 system to not be in contact after the crash test, 18 that is a -- the direction of the philosophy of 19 Chrysler in testing it. 20 COURT REPORTER: Of Chrysler -- 21 THE WITNESS: Of Chrysler in testing fuel 22 systems. 23 Q (BY MS. SPAGNOLI): We do not want to have contact, 24 as much as possible, and by removing the tank and 25 moving it to a different position, you minimize the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 73 1 contact, and that minimizing of contact is what I 2 will technically describe as having been better. 3 You minimize the contact, it's better for the tank. 4 Q And in terms of the Grand Cherokees that you tested 5 and observed having been tested in rear impacts, 6 this was the only test where you got that better 7 result from having the tank move up and away from 8 the suspension components, correct? 9 A The -- this is the only one that I recall that did 10 that. The movement of the tank relative to the 11 vehicle is a design of the kick-up. It's supposed 12 to lift and move the tank. The separation of the 13 rails is what is a different pattern here. The 14 shape of the rails and the forces that are applied 15 to the rails are designed to bend the kick-up over 16 the rear axle and lift and separate the tank from 17 the axle. That's its design intent. 18 When it did it in this particular test, the 19 rails separated, and when they do that, they don't 20 have the same strength, and there was a bend that 21 caused the rails to be vertical post test, and 22 that's what makes it different in this regard. 23 Q Right. And so my question was, that in this case, 24 you got that more favorable result because the welds 25 that ordinarily should have remained intact did not, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 74 1 correct? 2 A Yes. I think that's my cause and effect analysis 3 from looking at these photographs and my memory. 4 Q Okay. And so in production vehicles, you would not 5 expect the welds to fail, and, in fact, they were 6 not designed to fail, correct? 7 A Yes, they were not designed to fail. They should 8 not have failed, and in production vehicles, that 9 shape of the rail post test, it should have a 10 different shape. 11 Q Okay. And that different shape in all of the other 12 Grand Cherokee tests that you reviewed or saw, after 13 the crash, the tank was in closer proximity to the 14 suspension components than in the test where the 15 welds failed, correct? 16 A The weld failure allowed a different kind of 17 geometry. To say they were closer, I don't think, 18 is an accurate statement, because it's almost always 19 in contact, and I don't have any recollection of any 20 one that's not in contact with the axle or the track 21 bar, but it's the degree of contact and the area of 22 the axle and the track bar, how much of the axle and 23 track bar that are in contact that changes from test 24 to test. 25 Q Okay. You've just told us that, am I correct, with FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 75 1 the Grand Cherokee vehicles between 1994 and 1997 2 model years, that you observed either being tested 3 or you reviewed the crash test reports? Are you 4 telling us that in all of those cases similar to the 5 notes that we saw on the two tests where the vehicle 6 was certified in compliance for the '90 -- based on 7 the '91 and '92 tests, that there was contact 8 between the fuel tank and the rear axle and track 9 bar? Because that may have been a really long 10 question and I'll start it over unless you got it. 11 A In all of the tests that I observed, when you have a 12 rear impact event, the fuel tank contacts the rear 13 axle, and for the most part, contacts the track bar 14 in that it is attached to the axle and goes over the 15 axle. I can't say specifically whether every one of 16 them contacted the track bar, but I would -- I have 17 no memory of any one of them not contacting the 18 axle. I believe every one of them contacts the axle 19 -- 20 Q And is that -- 21 A -- but whether or not they actually touch the track 22 bar on every single test, I'm not certain that's 23 true. 24 Q Okay. Is it true for the '97 model year, that had 25 the addition of the reinforcement bracket to the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 76 1 left frame rail, that in the crash test you observed 2 for that model year vehicle, the tank also contacted 3 the axle? 4 A In the '97 rear Grand -- rear tests on the '97 Grand 5 Cherokee, the vehicle contacts the rear axle. The 6 reinforcing bracket actually translates the crush 7 into this kick-up area and causes exactly the same 8 phenomenon to occur to a degree that we were looking 9 at in VC5380. 10 Q Okay, wait. I think you may have misspoken. Let me 11 just be sure. I think you said the vehicle contacts 12 the rear axle. I think you meant to say the tank. 13 A The gas tank, the -- in the crash tests, the gas 14 tank will contact the rear axle. When we added the 15 reinforcing bracket, we moved the crush from the 16 rear rail forward in the vehicle to the kick-up 17 areas to more closely mimic lifting and separating 18 the tank from the axle area that takes the crush 19 from the rear deck and it moves it forward into the 20 kick-up areas. When you do that, it more looks like 21 the test 5380 that was a development test. 22 Q Now, earlier you told us that you added the frame 23 rail to keep the hole in the rail from closing up? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q And compromising the fuel vent and fill lines, FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 77 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Are you now telling us that an additional design -- 4 A Well, it's a benefit. 5 Q -- goal, benefit, that you actually contemplated and 6 searched for and attempted to accomplish with this 7 bracket was to change the crush characteristics so 8 that the tank would not contact the axle in the same 9 manner as the prior vehicle designs had done in the 10 crash tests? 11 A When we were looking at solutions to prevent the 12 pass-through hole for the fill and vent line from 13 collapsing, there were a variety of things that you 14 could do. When we judged the quality of each 15 solution, one of them was to prevent the hole from 16 collapsing and another one is to enhance the 17 performance of the tank and the system in the crash 18 test. I don't remember predicting before the test 19 that that would occur. I do remember noting it 20 after the test and saying that it was a good thing 21 and an added benefit for the design change of adding 22 the bracket. 23 Q Okay. How did that enhance the performance of the 24 tank? 25 A What it does for enhancing the performance of the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 78 1 tank is that it removes the number of things that 2 come in contact with it and minimizes the contact 3 with the rear axle and that lower part of the 4 vehicle, and translates the contact to the upper 5 area of the axle which is the track bar itself and 6 away from the track bar bracket, and away from the 7 shock mounts and on to simply the differential, top 8 of the axle, and the nice round rod that is the 9 track bar because it goes above the axle now instead 10 of staying below, and at the level of the axle in 11 the previous crush where it happened in the rear 12 rails and didn't have the kick-up event that now 13 occurs when you put the reinforcing bracket on it, 14 but to say I predicted that, I don't think I would 15 go there. 16 Q Well, when you say that the change in adding the 17 reinforcement bracket enhanced the performance of 18 the tank because it removed a number of things that 19 it came in contact with, what were the things that 20 you believe the tank no longer came in contact with 21 after you added the reinforcement bracket? 22 A The differential is essentially a pumpkin. In fact, 23 it has a nickname of that. When you hit a ball 24 above its centerline, it tends to slide over it. 25 When the gas tank hits the differential on the FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 79 1 centerline, it tends to wrap around it. The tanks 2 are deformable, and I wanted our tanks to skid above 3 the differential and not have as much impact on the 4 differential as they would have if they had stayed 5 lower, and that is how I think we enhanced the 6 performance of the tank in the test. 7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Just a few minutes left 8 on the tapes. 9 THE WITNESS: Are we stopping? 10 MS. SPAGNOLI: Less than five? 11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Less than five. 12 MS. SPAGNOLI: Okay. We need to go off the 13 record. 14 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Going off the record at 15 4:01 p.m. 16 (Off the record.) 17 (Deposition adjourned at or 18 about 4:01 p.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 80 1 S T I P U L A T I O N S 2 3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 4 between the attorneys for the respective parties 5 hereto that all rights provided by the C.P.L.R, 6 including the right to object to any question, 7 except as to the form, or to move to strike any 8 testimony at this examination, are reserved; and, in 9 addition, the failure to object to any question or 10 to move to strike testimony at this examination 11 shall not be a bar or waiver to make such motion at, 12 and is reserved for, the trial of this action. 13 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 14 this examination may be sworn to, by the witness 15 being examined, before a Notary Public other than 16 the Notary Public before whom this examination was 17 begun, but the failure to do so, or to return the 18 original of this examination to counsel, shall not 19 be deemed a waiver of the rights provided by Rule 20 3116, C.P.L.R, and shall be controlled thereby. 21 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 22 between the attorneys for the respective parties 23 hereto that a copy of this Examination Before Trial 24 shall be furnished without charge to the attorneys 25 representing the witness testifying herein. FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 81 1 FURTHER DEPONENT SAYETH NOT: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 _________________________________ 14 JUDSON B. ESTES 15 16 17 Subscribed and sworn to before me 18 this ____day of _____________, 20___. ___________________________________ 19 Notary Public, _____________ County 20 My Commission expires: _____________________. 21 22 23 24 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800 82 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN ) ) ss 2 COUNTY OF MACOMB ) 3 I, Melinda S. Moore, (CSR-2258), a Notary 4 Public commissioned and qualified in and for 5 the State of Michigan, do hereby certify there 6 came before me on the date and at the location 7 hereinbefore mentioned, the following named 8 person, to-wit: JUDSON B. ESTES, who was by 9 me sworn to testify truthfully concerning the 10 matters in controversy in this cause; that he 11 was examined upon his oath and his examination 12 was reduced to typewritten form under my 13 supervision; that the deposition is a true 14 record of the testimony given by the witness. 15 I further certify that I am neither 16 attorney or counsel for, nor related to or 17 employed by any of the parties hereto or 18 financially interested in the action. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 20 hand and affixed my Notarial Seal this 20th 21 day of June, 2005. 22 23 Melinda S. Moore, Notary Public 24 Macomb County, Michigan My commission expires: 9-6-2010 25 FREELANCE REPORTERS, INC. (586) 779-1800